April 9, 2007 1:37 pm

SHARPTON: Keeping it real. Keeping it real.

I’m your host, Reverend Al Sharpton. We’re talking about the Don Imus controversy: our calling for his resignation, the fallout, and the buildup. And in a few minutes we’ll be talking with him.

I’ve been talking with Brian Monroe, the president of the National Association of Black Journalists. We’ll be joined also by Reverend Buster Sawyer, who has been meeting with the coach and the young ladies. And he is a long-time pastor and a long-time activist and politically involved. And we’re going to be dealing with this issue most of the program.

I think that this is something that we must deal with in a very serious way. The implications and the inferences are serious. And we’re going to sit down and we’re going to deal with this, and deal with it in a very public way. And go from here with it.

As I speak, Mr. Imus has just entered the studio, and I will — as soon as he’s miked up — we will talk. And we will have the conversation in public that we had talked about having.

Let me say this. You that will (ph) join me at any point.

I think that we keep it real on this show. I’m not — I have very plainly stated my position. He will state his. I’m not getting into a whole lot of name calling, but I’m certainly going to let us deal very candidly and forthrightly with this situation.

First of all, Mr. Imus, you set?

IMUS: Yes, sir. I think. Am I miked? Yes, I am.

SHARPTON: His mike’s on.

First of all, let me just say this so we are all clear.

Mr. Imus, through several friends who state that he is not a bad guy — I talked to over the weekend several of his friends. He offered to talk. I said let’s talk publicly. You offered for me to come on your show. I did not want to do that. I said, “If he wants to talk, let him come to my show.” You accepted the challenge.

There’s no preconditions. You understand that I have called for you to be fired. I have not rescinded that for you to come to the show. And there’s no preconditions other than we would talk very blunt and openly about what you said and why I and others feel you should be fired. Is that not so?

IMUS: Yes, sir. That is true.

SHARPTON: Let me first ask you this. What is any possible reason you could feel that this kind of statement could be just forgiven and overlooked?

IMUS: I don’t think it should be. I don’t think it can be. I think it can be forgiven, but I don’t think it can be overlooked. And I — when I originally apologized on Friday, I apologized — and I didn’t say what everybody says. You know, “If I offended somebody, I’m sorry,” because I knew I offended somebody. So I apologize.

But I didn’t want to be portrayed as offering an excuse, saying what we have is a comedy show, which it is. I’m not a journalist. I’m not Tim Russert. I’m not a politician. I don’t have any — we don’t have an agenda. Our agenda is to try to be funny, and sometimes we go too far. And sometimes we go way too far. In this case we went way too far.

SHARPTON: Mr. Imus, you think it’s funny to call people “nappy-headed hos”?

IMUS: No, I don’t.

SHARPTON: So, you thought it was funny Wednesday morning.

IMUS: I don’t know if I thought it was funny or not, but we got — it was a situation where we’re sitting there rapping, see, and I’m saying I watched the game last night between the Rutgers and Tennessee. And I heard one of the sportscasters say that Rutgers’ a lot tougher team, and I — so I got on the air, and I said, “Man, they are tough.” I said, “They got tattoos.” And then somebody else said something, and then I said that.

So, and at the time I said it — because I’m talking about two African-American teams — and at the time I said it, I didn’t think. I mean, I don’t know — I’m just telling you what I thought. I didn’t think it was racial. I wasn’t even thinking racial. I was thinking like a West Side Story deal, like one team’s tough and one team’s not so tough.

SHARPTON: Nappy is racial.

IMUS: Yes, sir. I understand that.

SHARPTON: Saying “wanna-bes” and “jiggaboos” is racial.

IMUS: I did not say that. And that was said in the context…

SHARPTON: You didn’t argue with it either.

IMUS: No. No.

SHARPTON: And it was the same conversation.

IMUS: No, sir. But that was presented in the context of the Spike Lee film.

SHARPTON: Again, this was — in that film, with light-skinned blacks and dark-skinned blacks. That was what that was about, which is what the analogy I assume was being raised in terms of the two teams with Tennessee and Rutgers.

IMUS: Well, we weren’t really thinking about — that’s obvious. Had we been thinking about it, we wouldn’t have said it.

SHARPTON: So we made all of these analogies — let me get this right.

You call these people “nappy-headed hos” but you wasn’t talking racial when you said “nappy.” “Jiggaboos” and “wanna-bes”, but you didn’t understand what you were saying. You just — what are you saying? You blanked out?

IMUS: Well, no. I didn’t. No. No. Don’t tell me I didn’t –

I didn’t say I didn’t understand what we were saying. I said I wasn’t thinking that. Now, if somebody says “jiggaboos” and “wanna-bes,” then my frame of reference is a Spike Lee film. It’s not a…

SHARPTON: Right, which was about light-skinned/black-skinned women.

IMUS: But, you know, I understand that. But I’m not thinking that it is a racial insult that’s being uttered at somebody at the time. I think it’s in the process of this — what we’re trying to rap and be funny. I mean, I understand it’s not funny. I understand there’s no excuse for it. I’m not pretending that there is. I wish I hadn’t had said it. I’m sorry I said it.

SHARPTON: All right. Now let me ask you this. And then we can talk about the things that you want to talk about. If you realize that something must be done, why would you then feel that we are out of order to ask that you step aside?

IMUS: I didn’t say that?

SHARPTON: Oh, you don’t think we are out of order?

IMUS: No, sir.

SHARPTON: So you have come to sign your resignation?

IMUS: No. I’m not signing anything.

SHARPTON: So what are you saying?

IMUS: I’m saying you have the right…

SHARPTON: You want to determine what ought to happen even though you were the one that did the wrong?

IMUS: I didn’t say that either.

SHARPTON: OK.

IMUS: I say, you have the right to say and do whatever you want to do. What I want you to do and everybody else, everybody who is calling me racist, everybody who is calling me a bigot and everybody who says, I don’t know anything about him, so I have heard people say, I don’t know what is in his heart, and I don’t know — I have never listened to his show, but I want him fired.

That is an ill-informed decision.

SHARPTON: Well, let me say this, we are going to take a break. We are going to come back and talk to Brian Monroe (ph). And I don’t know what is in your heart.

IMUS: I want people to make…

SHARPTON: And I’m not going to call you a name. I’m not going to call you a bigot. I’m going to say what you said was racist. I’m going to say what you said abominable. I’m going to say you should be fired for saying it.

IMUS: That is fine.

SHARPTON: You could be fired and the nicest guy in the world, but you ought to be fired.

IMUS: That is fine.

SHARPTON: I’m going to take a break, and we are going to talk about it. I will give you credit for showing up. And I will even give you more credit if you decide to change your mind about resigning.

IMUS: But you are not making an informed decision, Reverend Al.

SHARPTON: Well, I want you to inform me, because…

IMUS: OK. I will be happy…

SHARPTON: … one thing you will find out about me, I don’t meet in private, I meet in public so we can put it all on the line. And you act like a tough guy over there at the other station, so let’s be tough and let’s deal with it. You have been tough (ph) on us saying you are wrong, let’s see what the punishment you think should be. We will be right back. “Keeping It Real,” Imus did show up, you all. And I’m still here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SHARPTON: “Keeping It Real,” “Keeping It Real.” I’m your host Reverend Al Sharpton talking with Don Imus about our call for his firing.

Let me ask you this — I’m getting a lot of e-mails, a lot of calls, before I go into that and I’m going to bring in some others that want to talk to you, Mr. Imus. There is one e-mail here that said that you had said on your show this morning that you wanted to reach out to the team?

IMUS: I have.

SHARPTON: And what has happened?

IMUS: Well, I talked to — first of all, I talked to the athletic director, Bob Mulcahy, on 10:30 Saturday night. He said he was going to meet with the team today and the coach and talk to them.

Then last night I talked to Reverend DeForest Soaries for about 45 minutes, I guess. He is calling for my firing too, which he told me at the beginning of the conversation and then he and I talked about 45 minutes.

And he said, well, let me listen to you in the morning and see what you have to say. And he said something kind of interesting, after I talked to him, he said, you know, we don’t need a come-to-Jesus experience with you.

And he said, but that is what is most troubling about this. He said, that is the enigma here, is because I believe that you are a good person. He said, I know you do what you do for the African-American community, with African-American children and so on.

And he said, it is all the more troubling that you would say something like this, he says, because if you will say this, what would Rush Limbaugh say? And then he said something else. He said, you know, he said, here is what you have to understand, he said — that is what he said now, he said, Black people, at the core of their soul, don’t believe that white people like them.

And he said, At some point, when something like this happens with someone like you, who a person you would think could trust and would be on our side, he said, This just confirms that original fear.

He says, So it’s an egregious sin that you’ve committed. And I said that I understood that.

SHARPTON: But, Mr. Imus, and I’m going to have Reverend Soaries on to speak for himself and I think that Reverend Soaries is a good man. I’ve known him a long time, since we were kids.

This is not about whether you’re a good man. I mean, he can speak for himself on why he — this is about setting a precedent that allows racist language to be used in mainstream, federally regulated television and radio.

What you said was racist. But let me — see this young lady here? Where she is? You see this young lady?

IMUS: Yes, sir.

SHARPTON: This young lady just graduated and went to Temple. She is not a “nappy-headed ho.” She’s my daughter. And when I heard what you said, I’ve got to defend my daughter.

This is not about whether you’re a good man. This is about how you devalue, how my daughter and the daughters of a lot of people listening are going to be looked at in this world.

You have anchormen from news, network news, you have Senators, you have presidential candidates that come on your show.

Are we now saying it’s acceptable, in the middle of these kind of candidates and these anchormen, for you to sit up and call my daughter a “ho?” That’s what we’re talking about here.

IMUS: Absolutely not.

SHARPTON: Well, then, how can we then say the answer to that is, “I’m a good guy.”

IMUS: Why isn’t there the same kind of outrage, let me ask you, in the black community when rappers and other people in the black community, athletes in the black community defame and demean black women?

SHARPTON: I am one of them that is outraged.

IMUS: And calling worse names than I ever did.

SHARPTON: And I am absolutely outraged by it. I attack it. I disagree with it.

I’ve had friends of mine that use bad raps on radio that was fired and I do not think that there ought to be two standards. I think you ought to join it.

IMUS: OK. I think what makes a difference in this context, and you can still call for me to be fired, that’s fine, but I think what makes a difference, a crucial difference is what was my intent?

Am I some rabid, racist, vicious person who’s on a rampage, screaming, and got on the radio and turned on the microphone and said, “Here’s what I think these women are?”

That’s not what I did. What I did is repugnant and repulsive and horrible. You know what’s horrible about it is here are these young women who are at the pinnacle of their life and their athletic accomplishment, they played for the national championship and…

SHARPTON: And really suffered to do that.

IMUS: And I ruined it.

SHARPTON: And that’s the point.

IMUS: Yes, sir, I know that.

SHARPTON: But the point is this. The question is not whether you’re a rabid racist with intent. If you commit a crime intently would be an element, but the crime is still there.

IMUS: I understand that.

SHARPTON: You go to court and say, “Your Honor, I didn’t intend it. I got up this morning and I really was going to go to work, but I got mad and killed a guy,” you still are guilty.

The question of intent, you yourself said it was repugnant and all of that.

Here’s what I hear you saying, Mr. Imus — “It is repugnant, it is unbelievable, but let’s get past that and go on to the next commercial and I live to curse another day.”

IMUS: I didn’t say that.

SHARPTON: What are you saying?

IMUS: I didn’t say anything.

SHARPTON: That’s exactly right. You and I agree you’re not saying anything.

IMUS: I’m not saying anything about firing?

SHARPTON: About what is the — if you don’t think your resignation is in order, what do you think the price should be that you pay? Not that I would agree with it, but I’m just curious. What do you think…

IMUS: I haven’t thought about that.

SHARPTON: I know. Let’s bring Reverend Buster Soaries up. Reverend Soaries, you talked with…

IMUS: I’m sorry. (INAUDIBLE)

SOARIES: I think to pick up where you left off, I don’t think the question is whether or not Mr. Imus is a good or bad person.

SHARPTON: Not at all.

SOARIES: And so I’m willing to concede that he’s done some good things and perhaps did not intend to offend anybody.

I think I’m a good father, but if I’m speeding on the turnpike and get a ticket, I still have to pay for the ticket.

In other words, you don’t get fined based on your previous good acts. You get fined based on your current bad acts.

And I think Mr. Imus has proven to be a progressive thinker , probably a liberal, you know, in philosophy, but it doesn’t matter if you smack me with your left hand or your right hand, I’ve been slapped.

And so if Rush Limbaugh slaps me or if Don Imus slaps me, I’ve been slapped. And I think what we’re having problems with is that Don Imus does not fully understand the depth of the impropriety, because if he did, then he would understand why you and I can be civil, but at the same time, ask for his removal.

IMUS: Well, if I understood that, I wouldn’t have said it in the first place.

SOARIES: Well, and that’s our problem.

IMUS: Yes, sir.

SOARIES: I mean, if a person in your position, you’ve got about 10 million listeners. As Al said, presidential candidates stop by because they respect your ability to penetrate the marketplace.

And if someone with your ideological bent and philosophy can say something that mean spirited and that damaging, my god, then we don’t need enemies.

IMUS: I know you said that last night and I agree. I don’t have a good answer.

(CROSSTALK)

SHARPTON: Mr. Bryan Monroe, also, Mr. Imus, who is the head of the National Association of Black Journalists. Bryan?

MONROE: Thank you, Reverend Sharpton. And thank you, Mr. Imus, for coming on Reverend Sharpton’s show and standing up and…

IMUS: Yes, sir.

MONROE: … looking us in the eye and telling us what were you thinking.

IMUS: Yes.

MONROE: Mr. Imus, I have a daughter. I think you have a daughter.

What would you do if a 67-year-old man went in front of millions of people and called your daughter what you called these women?

Mr. Imus, what do you think the consequences of those words should be? Should an apology be enough?

IMUS: Probably not. Probably some gesture of reconciliation, I think. I mean, you see, I know the work that I do and so does Reverend Soaries and I believe so does Reverend Sharpton.

So, I mean, I’m not — I don’t have to go have a road to Damascus experience and so I go round me up a bunch of black kids and act like I’m going to do something good or try to get me some black friends or something or trip on myself to any kind of cause, like sickle cell anemia, which I’ve tried in vain to do.

So, you know, I haven’t thought about what I actually…

(CROSSTALK)

IMUS: But what you’re saying, I think — when I talked to the point, I was talking to the team and I was talking to the — and I’m trying to make arrangements in every possible way that I can to meet with these young women and their parents and the coach and apologize to them and try to put it into some sort of context that asks for them to forgive me.

Now…

SHARPTON: Could you hold one minute?

IMUS: Yes, sir.

SHARPTON: I’ve got to take a break and then when you get on this — we’re going to continue to conversation with Reverend Buster Soaries, Bryan Monroe, Don Imus live in the studio at “Keeping it Real with Al Sharpton.”

We’ll be back in a few minutes. I think your closing point was you would try to get a meeting and ask them for forgiveness. We want to pick up on that point.

And, again, my thing — well, we’ll wait until after the break. We’re going to keep it real, Sharpton, right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

SHARPTON: Keeping it real, keeping it real.

Al Sharpton, I continue the public conversation with Don Imus, and I am joined by Brian Monroe, of the National Association of Black Journalists, as well as Pastor Reverend Buster Sawyer.

Mr. Imus, you said, going off, that something about you wanted to do something with sickle cell, or something, and wanted to meet with these young ladies –

IMUS: This is slightly interesting, perhaps not. But I was talking about our ranch — we have a working cattle ranch for kids with cancer out in New Mexico that my wife and I run. We don’t have counselors, we run it, like a Bonanza deal, where we take ten kids at a time — half are from minority groups — and they live in the house with us and we are their surrogate parents. And we had — and we have noticed, over the years, a number of African American kids with sickle cell anemia.

And this past summer, there was a young man from New Jersey who we had to send home. And the airport is 120 miles from — not the airport, the hospital is 120 miles from the ranch. So, he liked my truck, so my wife and I and the doctor and this young man got in the truck and we roared down to the hospital. Meanwhile, Charlotte (ph) was on the phone, getting his mom to fly out from New Jersey. And we got in the hospital and my wife was holding his hand, and he asked her if he was going to die there. And we talked about that all the way home, because these kids know that we love them, because we tell them that we love them. And their parents know, when they send them there, that we’re going to be their parents.

So I came back on the air, and I talked to Harold Ford, and I talked to John McCain. And every politician I talked to, I said, What do you know about sickle cell anemia? How much federal funding is being done? How much research is being done? I didn’t hear from you, I didn’t hear from Reverend Soaries, I didn’t hear from this guy, the black — I didn’t hear from anybody. Nobody called me to say here’s how we can help you find out about this.

SHARPTON: Because we all been working on sickle cell for many years.

IMUS: Okay, well, ain’t a lot getting done, Reverend. Not a lot getting done.

SHARPTON: Maybe you should call us, and you’d already know about it.

But let me say this to you, Mr. Imus –

IMUS: Why are these kids still dying, then? Why — why is there no answer.

SHARPTON: That’s what we want to know. In fact, there is — I agree with you, there is not enough federal funds there, and there’s not enough private sector funds. We’ve been dealing with this for many years.

IMUS: I bet I could raise a lot more money than you all can.

SHARPTON: Well, I bet you could have, before last Wednesday. I’m not going to let you off the hook for last Wednesday. But before we go there…

IMUS: Well, I’m not asking you to.

SHARPTON: Before we go there, let me say this, I don’t think the issue is that you may have done good things. The issue is whether we can afford a precedent to be established, that somebody can say something that you admittedly say yourself is wrong and I say is racist and sexist and it would just be glossed over.

That is the issue here, because then if you walk away from this unscathed, the next guy can say whatever he wants and just say I’m sorry.

IMUS: I’m scathed. Are you crazy? How am I unscathed by this? Don’t you think I’m humiliated? Don’t you think I’m embarrassed? Don’t you think…

SHARPTON: You are not as humiliated as young black women are.

IMUS: I didn’t say I was. I didn’t say I was. It is not a contest on who is the most humiliated.

SHARPTON: Absolutely not.

IMUS: Don’t you think I understand what is — our job at that ranch is to restore the self-esteem and dignity of these young people. Don’t you think that I’m thinking to myself, well, what was I doing? What made me think I could make fun of these young women? What was I thinking? What was I thinking?

SHARPTON: And what do you think, as a — you say, a self-described good, decent man, you should do to establish a precedent that this type of thing cannot go unaccounted for?

IMUS: Look, just because I have done this program I have done for 30 years this way, doesn’t mean I have to do it this way tomorrow. And let me go talk to these women. Let me…

SHARPTON: But didn’t you once promise Clarence Page you would stop making these kind of statements?

IMUS: Yes, I did.

SHARPTON: So what do you, repent every decade?

IMUS: No, sir. No, sir. I mean, that is a good point. But no, sir. I didn’t think it — I wasn’t thinking. If I had been thinking, I wouldn’t have said this, Reverend Sharpton.

SHARPTON: I mean, you said this before. You called Gwen Ifill a…

IMUS: No, no, don’t, don’t, don’t…

SHARPTON: … cleaning lady?

IMUS: No, don’t start that. That is not true. That is absolutely — that is a lie. I didn’t call her anything.

SHARPTON: You didn’t?

IMUS: No, I did not.

SHARPTON: OK.

IMUS: Do you want to know the facts?

SHARPTON: Yes, please.

IMUS: This is back during the Reagan administration. How long do you — you all got to dig something up, it is the Reagan administration.

SHARPTON: OK.

IMUS: And we had a bit on the radio called “Imus in Washington,” which was like fake news. And I had a fake — like a David Duke character. And Gwen Ifill had just been named the White House correspondent for NBC News. And this David Duke-like character, reflecting the philosophy and the attitude of the Reagan administration said, isn’t it great that Gwen Ifill had been invited back to the White House as a cleaning lady.

And for years people have said I said that. I didn’t say that. We were — that was satire. That was a reflection of the racism we perceived of that administration. And for years I have had to — people have said, well, you said this about Gwen Ifill, I did not say that.

SHARPTON: So you considered the Reagan administration racist?

IMUS: Well, I thought — it was a joke. It was satire.

SHARPTON: But I’m saying, you considered them racist?

IMUS: I don’t know whether they were racist or not, but I think they were less than — don’t you think there were…

SHARPTON: Bryan Monroe, are you telling me that he hasn’t said statements down through the years that were questionable?

MONROE: Well, I want to go back to something he said earlier. Mr. Imus, you talked about the good work you are doing with sickle cell, the work you are doing at the ranch. I understand you picked up a young African-American child who needed some medical attention and took him on your plane.

I think all of those things are great, all of those things are admirable and they have nothing to do with what you said on Wednesday.

IMUS: I didn’t say that.

MONROE: But more importantly, for you to then — I heard you this morning call out black journalists, and I’m not going to let that stand. I need to tell you something. My magazine, Ebony magazine..

IMUS: No, what did you say I did this morning?

MONROE: Called out black journalists about not covering — not calling you and covering your sickle story.

IMUS: Well, nobody called me.

MONROE: All right. Let me be clear. My magazine, Ebony magazine has been writing and covering sickle cell anemia for decades now. Back when you were still doing radio spots for used cars. I cannot let you…

IMUS: But no, no, wait…

MONROE: I cannot let you…

(CROSSTALK)

IMUS: Don’t come on this radio program and insult me, because I’m not insulting you.

MONROE: I cannot let you question…

(CROSSTALK)

IMUS: I’m not going to sit here and let you insult me.

MONROE: (INAUDIBLE)

(CROSSTALK)

IMUS: Sir? Sir? I’m not going…

MONROE: … when you discovered sickle cell.

IMUS: You can keep talking all you want. You are not going to insult me. Don’t insult me. I didn’t — I have not insulted you…

MONROE: (INAUDIBLE)

(CROSSTALK)

IMUS: Don’t talk about me doing used car commercials.

MONROE: … why we — and why black journalists haven’t been covering this story.

(CROSSTALK)

IMUS: Let me tell you what — I will bet you I have slept in a house with more black children who were not related to me than you have.

(CROSSTALK)

SHARPTON: Now what does that…

(CROSSTALK)

IMUS: Do not get in my face about this.

SHARPTON: Whoa, whoa, whoa, what is that supposed to mean? Hold it a minute. What is that supposed…

(CROSSTALK)

IMUS: In fact, don’t be…

(CROSSTALK)

IMUS: … why don’t you show up here in person? Don’t get in my face about this.

SHARPTON: Hold it a minute, hold it a minute. Just a minute.

(CROSSTALK)

SHARPTON: Just a minute, Bryan. I’m going to take a break.

IMUS: Don’t — I mean, I don’t have to put up with a man getting in my face like this. Because I didn’t call him any names. I didn’t demean him.

SHARPTON: “Keeping It Real,” “Keeping It Real.”

IMUS: And so am I.

SHARPTON: That is right. You are on the right show.

IMUS: But I didn’t come here to get slapped around. I’m not going to get slapped around.

SHARPTON: No. We are not going to slap anybody around. We are going to talk about it blunt and…

IMUS: (INAUDIBLE)

(CROSSTALK)

SHARPTON: … unedited. I’m sure you sit at a radio station, you are not going to get touched, you did it every day.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(MUSIC)

SHARPTON: “Keeping It Real,” “Keeping It Real.” I’m your host Reverend Al Sharpton talking with Don Imus on the controversy of his statements and our — many of us calling for him to step aside as talk show host.

Brian Monroe of the National Association of Black Journalists has been. I’m going to take calls. We have a lot of calls. A lot of people want to talk. A lot of people e-mailed and some supportive of you, Mr. Imus, some supportive of my position.

Let me say this for the record as I bring these back up. There are many organizations, many groups that have been working for sickle cell a long time and …

IMUS: Well, I’m …

SHARPTON: … (inaudible) Sickle Cell Foundation.

IMUS: How much money did the government spend on research on sickle cell anemia? Tell me that.

SHARPTON: I don’t know. You should ask your friends to come on your show.

IMUS: No, no, no. But I know.

SHARPTON: You’re telling me that you …

IMUS: You should know that.

SHARPTON: Let me get this right.

IMUS: You don’t know how much money the government spends on sickle cell anemia?

SHARPTON: I know they’re not spending enough. I know that.

IMUS: No. But you should know how much, Reverend Sharpton.

SHARPTON: I know they don’t spend enough. But let me ask you something. You going to tell me, you, Don Imus — you’re Don Imus. You’ve had every presidential candidate, just about. Senators on your show. Anchormen. And you had never heard of sickle cell anemia until a couple years ago.

IMUS: I didn’t say that. You know I didn’t say that.

SHARPTON: What did you say?

IMUS: I’m saying you don’t know how much money the government spends on sickle cell anemia.

SHARPTON: No, you said that you were not aware of …

IMUS: And I’m going to tell you now. Ninety million. And that’s disgraceful.

SHARPTON: Now tell me when you became aware of sickle cell anemia.

IMUS: Years ago.

SHARPTON: But you didn’t do anything about it.

IMUS: What can I do about it?

SHARPTON: But you jumped on Brian Monroe about what he is doing.

IMUS: No. I didn’t jump on Brian Monroe. He jumped on me. All I said is I came back and talked about it on the air and nobody called me. That’s all I said.

That’s all I said.

SHARPTON: And I think the reason people didn’t call …

IMUS: That’s all I said.

SHARPTON: … and I don’t want to get diverted from the issue at hand. But I think the reason people didn’t call is because they already have been working on this.

IMUS: OK. But they’re not getting enough done.

SHARPTON: Oh, I agree with that.

IMUS: OK. That’s all I’m saying.

SHARPTON: But I think that regardless of that, that does not address the issue at hand.

I want to bring up now and then we’re going to go to the phones, Congresswoman Carolyn Cheeks Kilpatrick who is the chairperson of the Congressional Black Caucus. That is all the black members of Congress.

IMUS: Yes, sir.

SHARPTON: In Washington.

Congresswoman Kilpatrick, welcome back to the show. You’re talking with me. Don Imus is here in the studio.

Congresswoman?

REP. CAROLYN CHEEKS KILPATRICK, (D) MI: I’m here. I’m here. Hi, Reverend Al. Let’s keep it real and hello to your guest as well.

SHARPTON: Yes. Go ahead. Have you taken a position on this with Mr. Imus and our position in terms of his …

KILPATRICK: First of all, let me say I’m speaking as Congresswoman Kilpatrick, representing 700,000 people in Michigan and not for the caucus. The caucus is in their home districts. All 43 of us in 26 states, 40 million people, 10 of our districts our not majority African American so we represent Latino Americans, Asian Americans, Hispanics, Indian Americans, European Americans and the like.

So when I speak today I am speaking as chairperson of the caucus, not in consultation of my colleagues who I am sure share my view but we have not talked about it as a group, so I just wanted to say that.

As a woman, an African woman who has naturally curly, coarse hair, I am offended, I am offended that this gentleman, Mr. Imus, would even talk about it. Thank you for all the work that you have done in sickle cell and things you do.

I think about the children. I am also a mother and a grandmother. I know what it does to young children who love themselves, who brought the gifts of civilization, religion and science to the world as Africans and African Americans, that we now castigate ourselves and go too far, as I believe he did and he has gone too far and really brought a negativity to, I think, to women in general.

When you talk about nappy hair, that’s a children, child’s thing. And we don’t call it nappy. It’s good hair that’s curly and for a young girl who takes that and now has to feel it’s a negative, derogatory thing, I think you have done a real injustice.

The other part of that, “‘hos.” I mean, who says “‘hos” publicly? What is that? That is probably one of the most derogatory things any woman, black, brown, yellow, could even ever experience. But beyond that and listening to the show this morning, it was a conversation. It wasn’t just like a one hit. They went on to talk about two or three other things that I don’t care to talk about now.

And the tragedy at such as this, Reverend Al, and thank you for your leadership and just being able to talk, Mr. Imus doesn’t really understand the impact, the absolute appalling nature of his comments and take it like flippant (ph).

I think America has become flippant, as a matter of fact. Our families are in crisis. Our children our lacking in a whole lot of things because we don’t invest in it, the United States Congress, their healthcare, their schooling, their jobs, so I think it’s a critical time for America that we must rise up and come together and comments like this certainly take us in a bad and not (inaudible) direction.

And children at this time in America, 90 percent of America’s children go to public schools. They need reinforcement. Families who are late (ph) all the time (ph). I’m from Michigan. Two hundred fifty thousand jobs.

So to say something like that and then continue back and forth, I want both Mr. Imus and whoever the other guy was, they need to be fired, because they don’t understand it. They’re not going to come back and sit with him and see how we can rebuild a better nation, a stronger family and better communications system.

I really believe that if MSNBC and radio station had African Americans in advertising, African Americans in front of the camera, on the microphone, that can talk and share and we can expect and share each other’s cultural differences and celebrate them.

We’d be a stronger nation and a stronger people so members of the Congressional Black Caucus, though we haven’t talked, I’m pretty sure they share my views. I am looking forward to …

SHARPTON: You want to respond to that Mr. Imus?

IMUS: Well, one, I would hope, congressman, that I have not indicated I’ve been flippant about that and who says that I don’t want to help build better communities and a better understanding?

KILPATRICK: Well, I certainly haven’t said that. I said let’s do that. Let the communication — just those words you said Wednesday, the paragraph or two that you spoke Wednesday. Whatever you’ve done this point, to the thousands or millions or however many you reach and some of them are people of color, I’m sure …

IMUS: Yes, ma’am.

KILPATRICK: … has really begun to take down whatever we’re trying to build and I just think it’s unfortunate and you’ve got to be held accountable for that.

IMUS: Yes, ma’am, I agree. Let me meet with the team, which I am trying to do, and these younger members’ parents and the coach and the school and see if they’ll forgive me and if there is some thing that can be established there that I can do to begin to build something positive out of this, and then who knows? You know?

I hear what you’re saying and you’re right.

SHARPTON: My concern — and I respect the fact that you say that, but I also say this is not just about something. This is about ..

IMUS: Well, I don’t …

SHARPTON: Some accountability in this industry. About what is said.

IMUS: No, I understand that.

SHARPTON: That is what bothers me.

IMUS: Yes, sir.

SHARPTON: That is what this — if the FCC, Mr. Imus, can fine Janet Jackson for a wardrobe problem, how can we sit by and act like statements like this — let’s try to find something else do deal with. We’ve got to deal with the sue of airwaves to say these kinds of things.

IMUS: I agree. Totally.

SHARPTON: And I think that that is the issue here.

KILPATRICK: That is the issue. The FCC is regulated by the federal government. I am on that budget committee of the FCC.

IMUS: I agree.

KILPATRICK: There needs to be policies there. There also needs to be policies at MSNBC. I can see they don’t have one. I can see anybody can say anything and be — make a joke out of it. It’s not a joke time for America. The children are hurting.

Just think about Rutgers children in a white university, Tennessee, you name it …

IMUS: I have.

KILPATRICK: So the team is black. The schools are white. Those kids who go to those schools are probably struggling to stay there financially. They are struggling to stay there academically. Some of them are good students and doing very well. They are doing very well.

IMUS: Maybe …

KILPATRICK: And as they come to play in the final championship, do you know how much strength that has to take? And then somebody come and say something and in two minutes and tears them down, and them specifically?

And it wasn’t just about them, sir. It was about women in general all over this country and particularly women of color and it’s appalling. And that you don’t understand that…

IMUS: Oh, I do understand it. How do you assume that I don’t understand it? Of course I understand that. But, I mean, you know, it’s like the old country song, “God may forgive you, but I won’t. Jesus may love you, but I don’t.”

KILPATRICK: No, no, we’re a forgiving…

IMUS: So I can’t get anyplace with you people, but I can get someplace with Jesus.

SHARPTON: Who is “you people,” Mr. Imus?

IMUS: You and this woman I’m talking to.

KILPATRICK: No, no, no. I’m Congresswoman Carolyn Kilpatrick.

SHARPTON: ?MD+IT??MD-IT?It’s Congresswoman Kilpatrick.

KILPATRICK: And wait a minute…

IMUS: Oh, don’t try to hang that on me. That’s jive.

SHARPTON: What’s jive?

IMUS: When you say, “What do you mean by ‘you people?’” You know what I meant, about you two people.

(CROSSTALK)

SHARPTON: We’ve got a whole lot of people…

IMUS: That stuff, that’s not even fair. You said you were going to be fair. Keep your word.

SHARPTON: I’m being very fair.

IMUS: Well, keep your word.

SHARPTON: I’m being very fair. I’m being very fair and I’m being very real.

IMUS: Keep it real and keep your word.

SHARPTON: I’m saying to you what did you — I asked you what did you mean (INAUDIBLE) women. This is — I’m in charge here.

IMUS: Yes, but you know what I meant.

SHARPTON: I asked you a question.

IMUS: You know what I meant.

SHARPTON: No, I did not know what you mean. I’m talking to a man that called people “nappy hos” and I know what you meant?

We’ll take a break. We’ll be right back. Don’t gesture at me. Try to be civil, now.

(NEWSBREAK)

SHARPTON: Keeping it real. Keeping it real. I’m your host, Reverend Al Sharpton.

We’re talking with Don Imus about the controversy. He and I have, as we said, very blunt with each other.

But I must tell your friend Harold, you not only are here, you’ve stayed here. So he says he will take calls and we’re going to talk to people and you’ve got, I’m sure, mixed callers in terms of where they stand on this issue.

So as we said, we don’t hold bars here. There’s no preconditions in our talking, Mr. Imus. We do not screen calls. We’re going to let people talk.

IMUS: That’s fine.

SHARPTON: I do not want people to do a lot of — we do not use vile language on this show. Other than that, you can state your feelings about — it’s not about name-calling.

Let’s go to Erica (ph) in Atlanta Georgia. Erica (ph), you’re keeping it real with Al Sharpton.

CALLER: Hi, Reverend Al.

SHARPTON: Hi.

CALLER: I just wanted to say that this is a prime example of why we need affirmative action. I’m pursuing my master’s right now and if I walk into a job interview and even if the CEO or the person interviewing me is the best person they could be, they could be the best, nicest person in the world, but if, when I walk in that door and they see me as a nappy-headed negro, it doesn’t matter if I have a 4.0.

It doesn’t matter if I spend all my time studying. None of that matters. It doesn’t matter that I’m efficient and proficient in my job qualifications.

All they’re going to see is that I’m a nappy-headed negro or a nappy-headed ho. And to me, it doesn’t matter how nice or how smart and sweet you are, Mr. Imus — I’m sorry.

IMUS: Imus.

CALLER: Imus. I’m sorry.

But it doesn’t matter to me. If that’s what you see. And you said you didn’t even think about it. To me, that’s even scarier, because to me it’s innate.

IMUS: I agree.

CALLER: And, I just want to say one other thing, is, you know, you were saying about the sickle cell and all that. Seriously, Reverend Al, I was waiting for him to say, “Some of my best friends are negroes.”

IMUS: (Inaudible).

CALLER: I was waiting for that also.

IMUS: See, I — you know, that’s fine. And I appreciate — thank you, ma’am. But I…

SHARPTON: I thank…

IMUS: You see, that was the reason, when I initially apologized, I didn’t talk about anything I do. I didn’t talk about the context of the program; that it’s been a comedy program for 30 years, because — and I was talking — Reverend Sawyer said the same thing, you know.

If you live your life as I do and my wife does and do the kind of work we’ve done and we’ve done for years, and then you start talking about it, then you get the same reaction — and God bless that woman. I mean that. But you get that. I could hear the heart and her pain in her voice.

SHARPTON: And, see, what I’m trying to say…

IMUS: And — but you get that reaction…

SHARPTON: I don’t think anyone is discounting what you may or may not do in charity. I think…

IMUS: No, no. But she…

SHARPTON: … what you must understand…

IMUS: Oh, I’m sorry.

SHARPTON: … is the pain and inflicted pain of having to deal with someone of your stature — whether you call it comedy or not — that reinforces what women, and then black women, have to deal with every day.

IMUS: I have no response for that. You’re right.

SHARPTON: And that’s the issue here.

And, I mean, I don’t judge your other work one way or another. I’m not, until recently, even aware of it. I don’t think anyone denounces it or belittles it. But I don’t think you understand the impact of what you said and the platform…

IMUS: Well, I’m…

SHARPTON: … and the platform must be held to a standard and must be accountable.

IMUS: I’m trying to.

SHARPTON: Well, let’s go to Karl (ph) in Valley Stream (ph). He probably — hello, Karl?

CALLER: Yes. Good afternoon. How are you, Reverend?

SHARPTON: Fine. How are you?

CALLER: I’m very well. And to my other fellow laborer of the gospel, Reverend DeForest, if he’s there, good afternoon to you.

SHARPTON: I think he is back.

CALLER: OK. And to Mr. Bryan Monroe.

Let me just be quick with this. I don’t condone what Mr. Imus said. I’m not an advocate for his show. However, I do think that we need to put things in perspective.

I am a black man. I have five black sons. And some of the things that I’ve seen that Mr. Imus has done, for example, when Bishop G. E. Patterson passed away — and our bishop was over 5.5 million members — it was Mr. Imus who aired sermons from Bishop’s church. When Harold Ford, Jr. ran, it was Mr. Imus who talked up Harold Ford, Jr.

IMUS: What do you think people called me, Reverend Al, for supporting him? Or just imagine what you think people called me; wrote me letters and phone calls, emails.

SHARPTON: For supporting Harold Ford.

IMUS: Yes.

SHARPTON: Go ahead.

CALLER: I’ll tell you something. I’ve been watching you for the last eight years. And when I saw you support Shawn Bell (ph) after he was murdered in the street, when I heard you talk about Dr. King, Sr. — Dr. Martin Luther King, Sr. — and even when you brought on the Blime (ph) boys of Mississippi…

IMUS: Alabama.

CALLER: Alabama. I didn’t know they existed until they came onto your show. And the way that you continually go after everybody — you don’t just exclude people — you are a person who…

SHARPTON: Karl, let me ask you a question.

CALLER: Sure.

SHARPTON: And G. E. Patterson — I grew up in the Church of God in Christ. I certainly know who Bishop Gilbert (ph) Patterson was.

CALLER: Sure.

SHARPTON: But let me ask you a question. Do you think that we must have standards in broadcasting?

CALLER: Absolutely.

SHARPTON: Do you think they should be held accountable?

CALLER: Absolutely.

SHARPTON: That’s the only issue that we’re talking about here.

CALLER: Yes. And, Reverend Sharpton, let me just say this to you. I’ve heard you preach at both of the churches that I attend here in Queens, New York. You, I love. I think you are the most prolific voice of our time. In this instance, though, Mr. Imus’s show, if you would watch his show and the content — I mean, there were things that offended me that Mr. Imus, Bernie and some of his staff have said. Mr. Rosenberg is a totally different situation. I think Mr. Imus needs to rethink his re-hiring of Mr. Rosenberg.

But let me just say this: it is a comedy show, it is something that has gotten to my goat on certain instances, but when I hear him talk about Dick Cheney being a war criminal, when I hear him talk about George W. Bush, who is our president, who has the aptitude of probably Morris the Cat, when I hear him say things about other people and other cultures, that lets me know that no one is impervious to being talked about, even though — keep in mind, I have a black mother, my wife, I have two sisters who are professionals — I kind of think that he wasn’t thinking. The other young lady said, Yes, it could be innate. I don’t believe that. I believe — at his core, I believe, he is a good, decent person. The things that he has done has shown that.

I heard –

SHARPTON: Well, let me say this, because we’re going to run up on the break: I — again, I think that, if — and others have said that — I think, then, that if he is the good, decent person you all believe, he should then confirm that this accountability must be established, and there must be some accountability. And I think that’s what it is.

This is not personal. I don’t dislike — I don’t even know him to dislike him. But I cannot see us having a precedent, where somebody can say this, and we not stop and say, Wait a minute, this is not allowable.

I’m going to take a break, let him respond, take a couple more calls. And he said he’d be an hour, he’s going on two hours. So I’m going to finish the hour with him.

Keeping it real — Don Imus is our — he’s in the studio. I don’t want to say `guest,’ but I’ll say you’re in the studio.

We’ll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SHARPTON: Keeping it real. Keeping it real. I’m your host, Reverend Al Sharpton.

I’m talking with Don Imus on the controversy of his statements and our call for his termination.

We’re going to take a couple of calls and Bryan Monroe has rejoined us.

We’re going to take a couple of calls and go to the top of the hour with this.

Let’s go to Dave in Boston. Dave, you’re keeping it real with Al Sharpton.

CALLER: Thank you for taking my call.

I want to preface this by saying that I’m a pasty white guy and I am not an Imus sycophant and I also don’t ever profess to understand the pain that black men and women have endured over the years and will continue to be plagued with.

But I’m going to tell you my story about Imus. I’ve been listening for 30 years and it was back in the early ’80s when — every New Yorker can remember when Jane Dornacker’s helicopter went down, on the air, and it was a horrible scene and I remember listening to Imus and, at that point, I realized that this grumpy, kind of miserable guy, underneath it all, was a real guy and the real deal, because you could hear it in his voice and I’ll never forget that.

And as I’ve listened over the years and to the ramp-up of the ranch (AUDIO GAP) remember like it was yesterday when young Ashley, the first girl that went to the ranch, was — I think she was from New Jersey — got up at 5:00 in the morning and was peering through the radio (AUDIO GAP).

And as you were getting closer to the fundraiser, we were falling short on efforts and I said, “Who can you turn to,” and I turned to Imus.

I wrote Imus a letter. I called his station. I pleaded on the voicemail. And then five days or four days before the event, we were falling short and I was in a total panic, because I felt that I was letting the kids of Hole in the Wall down and Louis, Fallon’s (ph) father.

And then I woke up and I thought I was having a heart attack. I got rushed to the hospital and I was in the hospital, with all the plugs and tubes and everything, and my phone rang. I was embarrassed that I didn’t turn off my cell phone.

And it was someone from Hole in the Wall and asked what I was doing and I said, “Getting ready” — I was too embarrassed the telephone was going on.

SHARPTON: Go ahead. You’re going to have to — because I’ve let you talk, but…

CALLER: All right. But what I’m saying is Imus put me on the air and that catapulted our event and it turned my life around.

And it got me to Hackensack to go to look at what he does. You go into the room in Hackensack and there are more Latinos and more black people and black children than any whites and it’s because of him (AUDIO GAP) and his wife.

And I agree that, you know, it’s open game and it’s been open game for 30 years and I got to tell you that you got to give this guy a chance, because he’ll figure something out. He’ll turn the tide with this, because you can’t dismiss all the good things he’s done for others because of his effort.

SHARPTON: Let me say this, Dave, because we’ve only got a few more minutes.

I don’t think any of us are dismissing anything. (AUDIO GAP)

IMUS: … and to talk to the conductor…

SHARPTON: I think that Bryan Monroe is more — we’re all conductors, but I think that the music has an end and I think the end is to stop the melody of racism on the airwaves.

IMUS: I agree.

SHARPTON: Bryan? Bryan Monroe, before we close this with Mr. Imus, we’ve got this issue of accountability. I don’t think any of us is trying to prove Mr. Imus never did any good deeds in life.

MONROE: At the end of the day, you’re right, Reverend Sharpton. And, Mr. Imus, we are all very sympathetic and supportive to the good work that you’ve done.

IMUS: (INAUDIBLE) I can help do that.

MONROE: To help especially these children. And you said yourself, when you did this, you weren’t thinking.

IMUS: Yes.

MONROE: And that you don’t — we don’t want to be in a situation again where you weren’t thinking. And you said yourself this is not who you are, that this is not your heart.

IMUS: No, sir.

MONROE: At the end of the day, it is the actions. It is the words that come out.

You make an awful lot of money for an awful lot of people to do what I’m sure is often a very funny radio program that brings millions and millions of listeners. But with that power comes accountability.

The first question I asked you, and this is the question I’d like you to really think about and I’ll give you my private number if you want to answer it to me privately, but what should the consequences of your words be?

SHARPTON: And I hope he thinks about that. I have already told him and everyone what my …

IMUS: What — I’m sorry.

SHARPTON: Go ahead.

IMUS: Let me meet with these young woman and one would hope their parents, the coach and others. Now someone proposed to me, said, why don’t you propose some kind of scholarship to pay for these kids to go to school? I said, so then get accused of trying to buy myself out of this?

SHARPTON: But again, that does — I don’t think that answers the accountability question.

IMUS: I don’t either but I’m just telling you what people say.

SHARPTON: I’m sure people come out with all kinds of things.

My concern, just so you (AUDIO GAP) is that the next guy that calls somebody a racist or sexist term does not use you as a precedent as saying, all I’ve got to do is say I’m sorry. All I’ve got to do …

IMUS: No, no.

SHARPTON: … is do some charity and I’m gone.

IMUS: Then this guy …

SHARPTON: We can not establish that precedent.

IMUS: Then this guy won’t be me. On this one (ph) I won’t have walked the walk that I’m walking.

SHARPTON: The next guy should not exist in the first place.

IMUS: No, I agree.

SHARPTON: And the only way that will happen is we’ve got to make sure with you that they understand that this is the line drawn in the sand.

IMUS: But I am willing to participate and look into my heart, first to try to talk to these children, these young women and then to try to make this better and to try to somehow heal what I’ve done because I really do understand the horrible damage that I have done to these young women because I know even a couple of them are from tough neighborhoods and there’s already jealousy and resentment in their neighborhoods and they already — and now they have some old cracker on the radio calling them some sort of name and they have to deal with that and so I have …

SHARPTON: The term “cracker” you used on yourself. I didn’t call you that.

IMUS: Yes, I know.

SHARPTON: I’m sure some of your supporters will be on TV today saying I called you that.

IMUS: No …

SHARPTON: And I would appreciate it if you would respect your own race on my show.

IMUS: Well, I don’t — as far as I am concerned it’s not a disrespectful term.

SHARPTON: OK. Good. You said …

IMUS: Like redneck or something.

SHARPTON: … and I didn’t. Good.

IMUS: But anyway …

SHARPTON: I think in all seriousness, though, Mr. Imus, that it’s accountability as far as I’m concerned.

IMUS: Let me try to make it better. If not, why, then, maybe you’ve got a point.

SHARPTON: I think that you and I both understand each other. Thank you for coming.

IMUS: You’re welcome.

SHARPTON: And …

IMUS: Thank you for giving me the opportunity.

SHARPTON: … Mr. Monroe, would you stay with us.

MONROE: Thank you, Mr. Imus.

IMUS: You’re welcome.

SHARPTON: And we’ll take more calls and we’re going to continue “Keeping it Real.” Al Sharpton. You can join the conversation at 1-877-532-5797. And Bryan Monroe and I will continue the conversation and I will give you updates as we go forward.

3:00 pm

END